A Conversation with Katie Dozier (aka. KHD)
A Conversation with Katie Dozier (aka. KHD)
Mark Danowsky: Ok, so you’re a pro poker player? Rumor has it you’ve written two poker books.
Katie Dozier (KHD): While in college studying poetry at Florida State University, I wound up at a party where some poker was being played and I thought, why not? Turns out, I loved it immediately—the comradery, competitiveness, and the logic behind it all appealed. While at FSU, I started to take the game pretty seriously by studying and playing online poker. Later on, I edited a few poker books and also co-wrote a couple.
MD: Is your favorite movie Rounders? It’s in my Top 25 without a doubt.
KHD: It’s a great movie and Brian Koppelman is a legend, particularly in poker circles for managing to tell an incredible poker-centric story without over-simplifying it for the masses (well, perhaps except for that hilarious Oreo tell). In a display of the ambition of my 20’s, I once sent him the poker thriller I co-wrote and self-published. Mercifully he either didn’t read it (by far of course the most likely) or never had the heart to blast it to me.
MD: Does “Luck Be A Lady” by Frank Sinatra have a special meaning to you?
KHD: My corniness abounds when it comes to seeing poker in songs. In fact, I have a whole playlist I like to listen to when I play poker. It also has songs like “Under the Gun,” by The Killers, and of course the ubiquitous “Poker Face,” by Lady Gaga.
MD: Is it true that you studied to become a chef? And then turned to poker? Are these related skillsets? I fancy myself a decent home chef. I’ve heard the world of culinary arts is cutthroat and that was a major reason why I did not go to culinary arts school. Do you have cooking tips and recipes for us?
KHD: After college, I moved to the DC area. I started cooking around the same time I started writing poetry—around when I was seven. There was an excellent culinary school nearby that unfortunately didn’t survive COVID; L’Academie de Cuisine. Writing about food was always fascinating to me; writers such as Ruth Reichl and Frank Bruni in particular. There are only so many ways to write “this is delicious,” and while I wanted to become a better cook, I had my eye on becoming a food writer. I did local reviews for the Tacoma Voice for a bit, which was fun.
Meanwhile I was still playing poker online and realized I could earn a living by transitioning to full-time player. That being said, my time in culinary school was rewarding in ways I never could have imagined; above all it taught me to be efficient. In a way, a busy restaurant kitchen is a bit like a poem itself; nothing can be out of place, there is no room for anything superfluous and even the turns have to be perfect or you could spill a vat of veal stock!
The most common mistake home cooks make is with regard to seasoning—specifically the use of salt. Of course, there are health concerns when it comes to sodium but most people tend to under salt the food they make fresh at home. Second to this, making your own stock can radically improve the quality of your recipes if you already cook.
MD: I have a feeling there is a gender bias in poker, yes? An expectation by men that women may not be as skilled.
KHD: There is an extreme gender bias in poker. While it varies a lot by game type, in the tournaments I played, women tend to make up about 5% of the field. And yes, the idea that women are worse players is still a pervasive stereotype. A few serious poker players friends (Katie Stone, Jennifer Shahade, and Jamie Kerstetter) and I formed a group to promote the idea of women playing well and seriously, called the Grindettes. (A “grinder” is a common poker term for a player, referring to “grinding it out” on the felt.)
MD: What are your “tells”? Just kidding. Seriously though, what are your opinions on poker strategy and how do they deviate from what other pros would say?
KHD: While I do play both live and online poker, I have played many more hands online than in brick-and-mortar casinos (probably around 15 million hands). In large part, this is due to the ability to play multiple tournaments at once—which was my specialty. (I say “was” because since UIGEA and various legal issues for poker with government restrictions, the boom has dried up and there is not enough action to support this level of play anymore.) At peak, I was playing around 50 tables at a time, requiring me to make multiple actions per second using an elaborate hot-key system. [link to youtube playing tables videos:
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Given the number of actions I was making, it perhaps will come as less of a surprise that I am a mathematically-based player. There are certainly Rounders-style adjustments I make to certain opponents and/or situations, but by in large they are coming from a place of game theory.
MD: Talk to me about The NFT Poetry Gallery. I love this argument in favor of NFT poetry. Can you elaborate? What is your sales pitch for “conventional” poets getting into NFT poetry?
KHD: Imagine writing a poem and being able to publish it almost immediately as digital art, and furthermore, that you can sell your art while simultaneously sharing it with the world.
NFT Poetry jumps over so many obstacles that challenge traditional poetry. Of particular importance today is the lack of immediacy, by which I mean the large delay between the poem being written and publication. There are of course exceptions: One Art has an impressive turnaround time and Rattle’s Poets Respond series does an incredible job. Still, the problem is a tremendous one for traditional poetry in an age where everything moves so quickly.
Poets are expected to wait months to hear back about a poem, and if it is selected for publication it can be years after they wrote it. I realize great poetry is timeless, but how can we further the evolution of art at this crawl? We need avenues to share poems as well as (perhaps even more controversially) to eliminate the common restrictions on publishing that actively discourage the sharing of poems (which I made a Thread Poem about, here.)
The NFT poetry community is an extraordinarily welcoming one and my goal is to continue editing my site to further reflect this web3 environment. The thrill of minting a poem that someone chooses to collect is only surpassed by the rush of buying someone’s first poem and the joy it brings them. Of course, some wonderful poets have already had big success, such as Sasha Stiles, who had an NFT Poem auctioned by Christie’s recently. Down the road, I think we will see more and more NFTs poets become well-known within the world of art (as well as mainstream poetry). I believe there will be far more poets truly making a living from their craft, which should be the case in our underrepresented art form.
MD: If poets want to try their hand at NFT poetry, what is a relatively simple inroad? I see that you use linktr.ee – is that a way to help get the word out? Relatedly, there are a lot of scams out there in the world of crypto and NFTs. What are safety precautions anyone who decides they want to dabble in this space should keep in mind so that they do not fall prey to scammers.
KHD: There are a lot of scams in crypto—which is an unfortunate tarnish on a largely beautiful space! My biggest tip is one that applies everywhere; be very careful about the links you click on and downloading anything.
Link tree is great as a way to broadcast your collections that may exist on different platforms as each has a slightly different flavor. For example, my “Flower Poems” collection is on The Foundation, which fits the monochromatic style of the platform which also tends to be a bit higher-end given that it was invite only for a very long time, and the creators pay gas on the Ethereum chain in order to mint.
MD: I’ve heard you talk with Tim Green (Editor of Rattle) about NFT poetry. Concerns came up about the monetization of poetry. This is a long-held concern about poetry and, let’s be real, The Arts in general. For me, this feels tied into the idea of “The Starving Artist” and that if artists are making too much money then they are not going to produce good art. Can artists starve a little less and still produce quality art? What’s your take on all this?
KHD: Tim and I host a weekly Twitter space (on Thursdays at 3 EST and 12 PA) called “The Poetry Space” and this will be the topic of a future discussion for sure! Personally, I think poets’ discomfort with money is one of the things that holds our art form back from being more mainstream. The reality is that, as a society, we tend to express value in currency—which largely holds true even when it comes to art. Why should poetry be any different? In acting like it has little to no monetary value we aid a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Better art is created when artists have the freedom to create without expectation, but art that panders to money quickly verges into the realm of propaganda. In other words, reimagining poetry so that more poets have the ability to make a living from expression without expectation would result in the further evolution of our art form by allowing artists the freedom to do what they do best.
MD: What do you feel is the current state of play with regards to crypto and NFTs? Some think cryptos is a straight up Ponzi scheme (essentially rewarding those who bought in early and punishing the latecomers). How do you see crypto playing a useful and vital role in the future of society?
KHD: It seems I’m drawn to things that people like to call Ponzi schemes, as I’ve also heard online poker referred to in that way. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I believe Satoshi Nakamoto’s White Paper that birthed Bitcoin is the most important event of my lifetime. The pushback on revolutionary ideas is always resounding, so it’s no surprise to me that many people mistake BTC for being some kind of a trap. I see it as: the first truly sound money that puts power in the hands of the people. To say I’m merely excited about it would be the same as claiming I “kinda” like poetry!
MD: Talk to me about Objkt.
KHD: Objkt is a platform for minting (i.e. creating) and collecting NFTs on the Tezos blockchain. It’s the place I most recommend for those just starting out because it’s very inexpensive to mint, has a user-friendly interface, and has a rapidly expanding collection of NFT Poems. The ability to create on chain collections is a wonderful tool to differentiate poems by the same poet. For example, on Objkt I have a handful including Cryptoku, and Little Poems.
MD: Where do you foresee the future of NFT poetry going?
KHD: I think poetry will be considered both visual art and literary art—meaning you’ll walk into MOMA and be treated to a gallery of NFT poems alongside other digital art. I think poets will again enter the conversation of mainstream pop culture, and in a bigger way than ever seen before. These are grandiose visions, but in a grand time—the ingredients for a poetry boom are already coming together.
MD: Do you see a correlation between InstaPoetry and NFT poetry?
KHD: A correlation, certainly. Both depend (to varying degrees) on social media in order to broadcast, but NFT Poetry is, in my experience, a search for the authentic art of each individual poet. We celebrate a diversity of styles all the while inspired by the collections that have come before. We also tend to collect each others’ work as a kind of tip economy, which I hope to see continually evolve over time.
My bias is obvious, but the breadth of forms and types of work for NFT Poetry feel much more like the evolution of an art form versus the search for the most algorithmic-friendly post. That being said, one of my current pet peeves is disparaging individual, wildly successful InstaPoets. I think it’s incredible how the reach of those celebrities put poetry into so many hands. So while it might not be something I generally take personal inspiration from, I’m grateful InstaPoetry exists.
MD: Who have you been reading recently? Who do you return to?
KHD: Hauled around in purse now is “Only As The Day Is Long,” by Dorianne Laux, “What Narcissism Means to Me,” by Tony Hoagland (my scribbled-in-the-margins copy from back at FSU), “Essential Haiku,” Edited by Robert Hass, and Mary Oliver’s “Rules for the Dance,” a poetry craft book about formal verse. I read as aggressively as I play poker and I’m excited to read Rachel Custer’s book, “Flatback Sally Country,” as soon as I can get my hands on a copy!
MD: Is there a poet you never tire of reading?
KHD: Every time I read David Kirby’s poetry, I find new meaning and another layer to the interconnectedness of the moments he braids together. Dorianne Laux and Kim Addonizzo continually inspire me—as does Timothy Green’s “American Fractal,” and his weekly poems for the Rattlecast. Ana Maria Cabellero’s poetry accounts for some of my favorite pieces within my NFT poetry collection.
MD: When do you find yourself coming to the page?
KHD: Whenever I have at least five minutes!
MD: What is the role of writing in your daily routine?
KHD: Writing simultaneously connects me to the natural world around me and to myself; it feels like my subconscious stretching to reach a place only locatable through the writing of poetry.
MD: Do you have any writing-related habits?
KHD: I know it is largely a no-no to listen to music while writing poetry, but I must confess to be guilty. I love to listen to minimalist classical music as I write, such as the Kronos Quartet playing Philip Glass, or Riopy. I edit (and re-read aloud) in silence.
MD: What are the most enjoyable aspects of the writing process for you?
KHD: I love the initial process of letting go in order to really arrive inside the poem, but love the editing process just as much. I’m one of those crazy people that actually enjoys a hearty debate on say, the battle to choose a definite or indefinite article in one tiny spot of a poem.
MD: What is the spark that begins a poem?
KHD: Anything that strikes me as weird or noteworthy in some undefinable way that warrants exploration.
MD: When do you decide a poem is complete? Is this related to a sense of satisfaction or closure?
KHD: When I read it aloud many times and still wouldn’t change anything about it. My instincts steer me. If I feel something is off, I work until it isn’t (or let the poem languish in google docs like the bottom of a lost and found bin).
MD: How important is music in poetics?
KHD: Music is extraordinarily important in casting the spell of a poem. Before I was an English major, I wanted to be a vocal performance major and studied opera. I sometimes think in musical jargon when editing—such as, this stanza needs a faster crescendo!
MD: How has your vision of success as a poet shifted over the course of your writing life?
KHD: When I first entered the realm of NFT Poetry, I focused too much on the sales of my own poems. Now I am focused on the strength of the web3 community, and define my own success more in terms of inspiring others to write and share their poems.
MD: Is there anything on your mind, in general, that you’d like to share with readers?
KHD: Regardless of if it is through the exciting new vehicle of NFTs or just on your social media pages, consider sharing your poetry.