Conversation with Brian Fanelli
Mark Danowsky:
What’s been on your mind lately? What would you like to discuss?
Brian Fanelli:
I remember when we first started talking, when I started writing essays for the SVJ [Schuylkill Valley Journal]. Wasn't it around the 2016 election, or maybe a year or two after Trump got elected? I recall trying to process it and trying to shape writing about the moment we were living in; in some ways, this moment feels more dangerous now.
If I pull back, beyond our worrying situation in the U.S., I see a global trend. We have the largest war in Europe since WWII. We have the real possibility China will try to swallow Taiwan and claim it as part of the mainland. It just feels like there's a global shift happening, a tilt towards right-wing populism. I'm thinking of Giorgia Meloni's ascension in Italy, of all places, or the growth of the AdF Party in Germany or Marine Le Pen's National Front Party in France. Both parties are extreme, and though they're not the majority in either country, they're making gains. Even Sweden just elected a new PM backed by the far-right.
So, it just feels like it's happening everywhere .Meanwhile, here in the states, less than two years after the insurrection, it seems likely election deniers are going to hold office, certainly not all of them, but at least some of them. I look at the slate of candidates running in places like AZ or Doug Mastriano here in PA, it's terrifying. Meanwhile, have we normalized political violence? I think of Jan. 6 and then the attack on Speaker Pelosi's husband...
If anything gives me hopes, it's the early voting numbers, which are smashing records. Maybe it won't be as bad as we think, but I worry that we're teetering and that there's a global trend occurring.
Mark Danowsky:
This feels ominous. If only it felt like scaremongering. This is really where we're at in society, isn't it? I like to talk about re-framing as a pivot from the present. Where do we go from here?
I worry a lot about someone like Mastriano. Something of a Trump clone. I could make a lot of metaphors or references here. A general thought is that we strike one down and two more arise. Why is Trumpism so contagious?
I've been reading a lot about Effective Altruism and longtermism and related moral philosophy recently. Thinking about future generations and future people. Of course, people in the here and now are suffering. This matters in a very real and time-sensitive way. What are you focusing on right now? Where does personal responsibility come into play? What can individual citizens do in such harrowing times?
Brian Fanelli:
Well, in terms of Mastriano, I don't see him winning. Josh Shapiro is simply a good politician. He's also won two state-wide elections by fairly large margins, including in 2016, which wasn't a good year for Democrats at the state-level. They lost the state to Trump and also a highly contested Senate seat. But the Christian Nationalism Mastriano represents likely won't go away, whether he loses by large margins or not.
There are glimmers of optimism, though, if we pull back a moment. Look at what Ukraine has done. Look at the fact the mini-Trump in Brazil, Bolsonaro, was just defeated and to his credit, conceded without challenging the election. In terms of personal responsibility, I'm still pulling myself to knock on doors this weekend before the election for our statewide candidates here in PA. I get that people are tired, that we were told the last election was the most important in our lifetimes, before the next one and the next one. But there are things we can do, like knocking on doors, talking to voters, texting, and making phone calls. It just requires an hour or two.
We have to remember that we have to take care of democracy. I know this sounds cliche, but we have to water it and nurture it. I do get a sense that Americans are more aware of that now. I also believe that if Trump runs again, he won't win. He lost the popular vote in ‘16 and lost the electoral college and popular vote in 2020. I do think the country is over him, but these candidates are an extension of Trumpism.
Right now, I think the best thing people can do is work for their candidates at the state level and even consider running to be a judge of elections, a committee person, or other local seats. They're just as important, maybe even more so.
I also think that people can start talking to each other, reaching out to their community. We live in these polarized bubbles, but I don't believe they're impossible to overcome.
Mark Danowsky:
FiveThirtyEight has Mastriano at 5% chance of victory. A HUGE relief. I know a little about Josh Shapiro and he seems like a genuinely decent human being. Not always the case for politicians.
What are your current feelings on campaign contributions? Is it clear-cut? The required war chest for running a campaign is getting increasingly obscene, don't you think?
You mentioned Christian Nationalism. What’s your take on this and the trajectory? Do you think this is related to the increase in antisemitism?
It feels strange to credit Bolsonaro with admitting defeat—seems to speak volumes about society at large.
It’s great to hear you speak about the importance of on-the-ground grassroots campaigning. Just a few days ago, on November 1st, I wrote an endorsement for Lisa Borowski who is running as a PA State Representative. This is not something I have done in the past. It does feel like we are living in an important moment. There is this sense that what plays out now could have an impact for generations to come, right?
I’ve heard people say that they stopped believing in democracy, fairness, The American Dream, after the Bush-Gore election in 2000. More recently, I listened to a terrific episode (titled “The New American Reconstruction”) of The Gray Area in which Sean Illing interviews historian Peniel Joseph about his new book The Third Reconstruction. Instead of the 2000 election, Joseph points to the Obama Administration as the catalyst for our current era. It does seem like we’re in this pattern of Dems and GOP backlash election after election after election.
Another topic, and I don’t mean to be alarmist by any means, is the talk of Civil War. Do you think this is something we need to worry about? We are hearing lots of talk about political violence. You already mentioned the recent attack on Nancy Pelosi’s husband. Relatedly, you mentioned the horrible situation in Ukraine. Are we looking at WWIII? It almost goes without saying that we’re talking about nuclear powers on the edge of conflict.
It’s very scary how many election deniers are getting into elected positions. I do wonder if, deep down, they actually buy into The Big Lie or if it’s simply a political talking point.
Brian Fanelli:
I'll speak first about campaign contributions. They certainly helped propel Bernie Sanders in 2016. His was a movement of grassroots donors and small contributions. It kept him going through the primary. I think it's also benefiting Fetterman. That said, last go-around, there were several Senate candidates who raised gobs of money from small donors. Sara Gideon in Maine comes to my mind the most. Everyone thought she'd topple Susan Collins. She raised a ton of money, but she didn't come close. The same was true of Amy McGrath in KY against McConnell. Like Gideon, she raised a lot from small donors, but it seems so much of this money came from out-of-state, from people who didn't quite understand the dynamics of the state or the particular race. I'm not so sure all of this money pouring in from donors outside of the state really helps. At the end of the day, a Congressional race or a Senate race often comes down to the politics of that state and the candidates. Is Mandela Barnes really going to topple Ron Johnson in WI if I donate $20 to him? I'm skeptical of that. But candidates also need money. What really propels a campaign over the finish line is the get-out-the vote efforts, the canvasing, the texts to voters, the phone calls, and the editorials, which you did. I think we often forget the impact that publishing an editorial in the newspaper can have. How did it feel for you to do that? That's also a little less confrontational than talking to a voter at the door, especially in this climate!
What I'd really like to see is an investment in state parties. Why have Democrats lost FL? Well, because it appears that their state party has fallen apart. Republicans know how to organize at the local level. They run people for everything. They invest in their state parties especially. It's a lesson worth learning. Even having an office in every county matters a lot.
As for Christian Nationalism, it's not going away. It may worsen when the GOP (likely) wins the House Majority. You'll have people like Congressman Gosar, Congresswomen MTG and Boebert likely seated on some powerful committees. It scares me, but I hope it ebbs. I'm not sure Christian Nationalism is quite to blame for the rise in antisemitism. I think it has more to do with an ascendant far-right globally. The trolls are no longer hiding online.
I need to pick up that book you mentioned, The Third Reconstruction. From what you've said of it, yes, I would agree with the premise. It's not like Trumpism arose out of nowhere. It was a long time coming. Trump just knew how to capitalize on the anger and the despair. But we can go back to the Tea Party in 2009/2010. There was an immediate backlash to Obama, which cost the Democrats the House in 2010 and elected some far-right characters during that time. I think it goes deeper than that, too, a consequence of Reaganism, of stagnant wages, which only exacerbated the us v. them mentality. Du Bois talked about this going all the way back to The Souls of Black Folk, a book very much about Reconstruction. Pit the white working-class against his Black and brown brothers and sisters. Create the Other, the boogeyman. Trump is a master at that. Think of those early rallies. But the GOP has only upped that game, yelling about CRT, transgender youth, and various other boogeymen. I fear this cycle they may succeed, as they capitalize on the anger we're still feeling after the pandemic.
In terms of political violence, that's increasingly becoming my biggest fear. I'm also gobsmacked by how......little we're talking about the fact Paul Pelosi was nearly killed. Have we just accepted this? And what about January 6? I don't know what to make of any of it, but when you also consider the stories about armed people watching drop boxes in AZ, you really have to wonder. A Civil War won't be like the other one, but I don't see how this tribalism ends anytime soon. Let's hope no one is killed...
As for what's happening in Europe, I don't foresee a WWIII. Even some of Russia's usual allies, like China and India, are skeptical of the Kremlin's actions and have been very public in saying so, especially India. But Russia needs to be defeated, for so many reasons. Right now, Ukraine is the symbol of democracy, of a relatively fresh democracy at that. Russia mustn’t be allowed to win. Let's hope Europe manages to stick together during the long, hard winter. But Russia's suffered many defeats. We have to hope that soon Putin will come to the table; at the same time, should we expect Ukraine to cede any of its land?
Mark Danowsky:
It’s special to have an opportunity to speak with a candidate. It really humanizes the person. If you feel you’re a good read of character, and, well, I suppose, many of us assume that we are, then getting positive vibes with reassurances that you and X politician truly do agree on issues that are important to you makes a difference. It makes you care about the outcome of elections big and small.
I’ve been a long-time Fetterman supporter. He, his wife, and his team did amazing work in their efforts to revitalize Braddock (Pittsburgh area). People who have followed his political career know this is a special individual. It was great seeing him at the “FetterWoman” rally, not too long ago, where made a notable point that folks on both sides of the political spectrum seem to agree with—that having a doctor (Dr. Oz in this case) make fun of you having a health issue is reprehensible.
Florida is a strange state. It’s part South, part retirement / snowbirds, large immigrant populations. Jeb Bush living there somehow makes sense. Seriously though, you make a notable point about organizing on the state level. I can imagine that having a stronger Democrat / Progressive presence on the ground and making noise would help level the playing field in places where Republicans have really dominated the space. This matters for a number of reasons. One of them is that there are people who are Democrats, Moderates, Independents who also live in these areas and feel disenfranchised. Some of them, I suspect, get taken in by the only game in town (the Republican candidates, in this case).
The Tea Party. Whenever they come up it still feels somewhat astonishing. For me, the rise of Alex Jones was inconceivable. A few of my high school friends and I would listen to him sometimes just to laugh at the absurdity of what he was saying back in the early 2000s. No one is laughing now.
I’m glad you brought up Reagan. I was not around for his presidency in real time. I’m learning more and more over the years. It was not too long ago that I learned about how anti-intellectual, anti-college he became. Some of the quotes you can dig up are frankly mind-blowing.
Agreed, the GOP has mastered the tactic of Othering. They know how to get a rise out of people on both sides. It doesn’t work when Dems try this tactic. I’m still frustrated that the “deplorables” and “clinging to guns and bibles” remarks were so damaging. Meanwhile, a Trump-style candidate can brush their shoulders off and keep talking about the enemy of the hour.
Let’s talk about how Paul Pelosi was almost killed. It was not so long ago that a plot was uncovered to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. I believe many will agree an intention that either planned, or became a plan, during the January 6 coup was to kill Mike Pence in an insane, and treasonous, frenzy to derail the possibility of a transition of power.
You mentioned the people with guns who are “watching” ballot drop boxes in Arizona. I think it’s worth making a clear statement that this is a form of voter intimidation. Gun reform is important for so many reasons. How many more times does The Onion have to reprint the same article? Our country’s love of guns is a sickness. I’ve read theories that it’s become tied to masculinity for some American men. I’m not going to pretend this is easy territory to unpack.
What do you think “defeat” looks like for Russia? I don’t see that sitting well with Putin.
Can we talk a little about differences in people who identify as a democrat, left, progressive, moderate, republican, libertarian, and so forth? I don’t know that anyone seriously identifies as a “MAGA Republican” or, on the flip side, as “Antifa” in any serious way—other than, perhaps, as a way to reclaim the dig in the vein of wearing “I’m a Nasty Woman” shirts. I myself tend to identify as a “Hillary Clinton Democrat”. I voted for Hillary over Obama in the 2006 primary. I think this says something significant about my outlook. Don’t get me wrong, I love Obama for many reasons. I also align myself with many of the positions held by AOC and others who are progressive left. Where do you stand nowadays?
Brian Fanelli:
I don't know what defeat looks like for Russia. If it keeps going poorly, does that mean Putin's time comes to an end? Will the people turn on him? Is that even possible? These are the questions I've been wondering. I don't know what, exactly, the exit ramp looks like for him. I also don't see Ukraine ceding any land, and why should they? They're a sovereign nation. I suppose Putin can claim some sort of victory, like maintaining Crimea without totally going back to his people with his tail between his legs. I can see that maybe happening, or he's toppled. But what replaces him? That's the question. Would he also use the strategy he used in Syria, using dirty weapons to break the country? That's my fear, too.
I don't know how I'd identify myself. I am worried about the future of the Democratic Party. If they can't win rural areas, at least somewhat, they're not going to win the electoral college. Obama won states like Ohio, Indiana (2008), Iowa, and Florida. All of those states have turned fairly red since then. The urban cities aren't going to be enough. The Democratic Party needs to win at the state level and focus on regaining some of those state legislatures and governorships. To that end, I wouldn't label myself one type of progressive versus the other. I'm for whichever candidate fits their state as a whole of their district. I think Tim Ryan is a great Senate candidate for Ohio. He fits. I think the same is true of Fetterman in PA. On the other hand, AOC makes sense for her particular district. But the Democrats need to get back to an economic message. They can talk about social issues, too. Those are important. Hell, make the economic argument regarding abortion. By banning abortion, you restrict a woman's economic choices, should she need the right to choose. I haven't heard that nearly enough. But in terms of favorite candidates or how I'd label myself? I don't put a label on myself. I'm for whatever candidate best fits their state/district. I will agree with President Obama, though. Democrats need to stop being a buzzkill.
Brian Fanelli is the author of the poetry collections Waiting for the Dead to Speak (NYQ Books), winner of the Devil's Kitchen Poetry Prize, and All That Remains (Unbound Content), as well as the chapbook Front Man (Big Table Publishing). His poetry, essays, and book reviews have been published by The Los Angeles Times, World Literature Today, The Paterson Literary Review, Main Street Rag, Louisiana Literature, Stone Canoe, and elsewhere. His poetry has also been featured on "The Writer's Almanac" with Garrison Keillor. In addition, he co-edited the anthology Down the Dog Hole: 11 Poets on Northeast, Pennsylvania (Nightshade Press). Visit him at