Thanks for this post. One of the things that I don't see mentioned so far is the way that some journals foster a sense of community by the fact that they allow readers to comment. That includes One Art (Even though, for some reason, my own comments are always somehow blocked. Must be something to do with my computer). Another thing that makes me want to submit to certain journals is that their website is easy to use -- e g.- you can do a search for an author, for example, to see all their work over time. Some online journals are much harder to sift through. I've had work published in a journal that awarded my poem a prize, but there is no way for a reader to click from the winner announcement/judge's comments to my poem or my name. No way to search any author's names or poem titles at all. You just have to scroll chronologically. I'm still glad for it, but it taught me something to be aware of in the future. Now, ease of use and ability to comment are additional considerations for me when I decide which journals I want to keep submitting to. I appreciate the way you have built One Art into such a hospitable and welcoming virtual space
Thanks for mentioning the community connection and, specifically, the ability to comment on poems. This *did* come up in the meeting, I'm often told both readers and contributors appreciate the ability to communicate and engage via comments and that it truly does foster community.
That is strange and unfortunate about your inability to comment... it's possible you have to sign-in and create and account to be able to comment.
Fully agree about the searchability of published authors being important. That is unfortunate that it's very difficult to find published work by authors in some lit mags. I wish it was easier to see how many times a poet has published in ONE ART... unfortunately, that's not something that I thought to integrate early (and it's beyond my webmaster abilities...) I do think it's nice when journals have an Archive that lists the number of appearances an author has had in their journal.
Thank you for your kind words about ONE ART being a hospitable space. Certainly an ever-present goal!
You're welcome! Re number of times an author appears -- for me, it's enough.that one can click on an author's name and thereby be able to scroll down through all their work on your (or another journal's) site. If I want to count, I can, but my interest is in reading.more work by an author I like, or finding that poem that I read 2 months ago whose title I can't remember but whose author for some reason stuck in my brain. it's nice to be able to find it. :)
Thanks for this, Mark. I don't know where you find the time for all your endeavors! Reading the comments, I realize I've always been something of a primitive regarding submissions. I use Google Docs (not spreadsheets) with four columns: poem title, journal name, submission date, result. That's it. I color poem titles in deep blue when they are accepted. I add a note when there are no sim subs . For the rest, most of it is mental bookkeeping about where to sub, and I like to keep a wildcard element alive because I've noticed often the ones that get through are the ones you least expected, while the 'sure things' are rather often not so sure. So I recommend - for those seeking guidance - to include something off-kilter or maybe just a bit different that what the algos suggest is a perfect fit. Keep it human! Great advice about growing a thick skin quickly. Rejection is the default. Keep at it!
True about the "wild card" addition to a submission. This came up in the live discussion and I mentioned how, in more recent years, I've tried to tailor my submissions even more so... sometimes sending less than the full allowance if I believe just a poem or two are appropriate for the journal. But then I did mention all the stories I hear (and I've experienced myself) of the poem that was tacked on at the end to fill out a submission being the one that just so happens to get picked up. It's a bit mysterious but the reality is it's difficult to read into the subjective whims of editors/publishers.
I'd almost go so far as to coin a 'wildcard rule', esp. regarding 'top tier' or 'dream journals'. Tho in the end I try to dissuade myself from the concept of dream journals. I try to put them all on the same plane mentally, despite rankings. Metrics are destroying us, I think.
Thanks for this Mark! It was a great session and I learned a lot. I'm glad you provided this summary. I'm sort of in a writing and reading and discovering phase right now. Taking the time to craft some things I truly love and what those are. I thought it important to focus on that rather than churn a bunch of stuff out for the sake of submitting. This is a good time to get my plan together.
Thank you so much for these thoughts Mark. I also use Google sheets for my submission database. It's not too anal in terms of specific dates or aspirations for the poems, so maybe not as detailed as most, but I do include month and year that I send a piece out to a particular journal, and I use color coding, so that for me it's very visual to know when poems have gone out and where, and then if they've been accepted, and if I sent it to a place without simultaneous submissions, or if I sent it to a place with simultaneous submissions but have to withdraw it, I have a color for each of those statuses.
I use a color-coded element as well (green = accepted, yellow = rewrite request, red = something went terribly wrong). Sounds like you have a more complex system for using colors. That's wise if it works. I think for some of us we can only manage so much complexity in our systems.
We have something in common. My acceptances are also green, a bright green. After that I also use a pale, lichen green to indicate rejection with encouragement to resubmit. I use a mustard color for rejection with no encouragement. I reserve red for no simultaneous submissions, so that I don't make any mistakes. For me, each piece has its own row. And those entries are more or less alphabetical. I also include keywords from the piece in case I need to search for them among my files. I suppose if you're solely using Google for your documents as well, you could make your entries links to the poems, so that you could always find them to send them out again. I'm not that sophisticated though.
I've started to try to include a list of keywords at the bottom of poem documents with the date, etc. It's a good idea for searchability, especially when you go to start assembling a collection. I only recently started this practice (unfortunately). Search functions are still limited... but as AI search progresses I have a sense it will be a little like what is happening with phone photos... we may be able to find "themes", tropes, throughlines using this technology... though it's certainly debatable if that is good or takes some of the art out of the very difficult to learn skill of putting together a book. I remember learning that assembling a poetry collection is an entirely new skillset the first time I set out to do so... side-stepping learning that skill will be, well, not great... but that's another story in the larger picture of AI (alien intelligence) concerns altogether...
Such a great meeting. Love the Chill Subs lists you've included-will check those out.
While certain lit journals do have more prestige, I like that you recognize 'top tier' as those journals where we feel a connection... which happens for me when I love the poetry a journal publishes & find their website easy to read/navigate.
Certainly, there are so many different approaches to submitting work. I find my own constantly evolving.
I look forward to future meetings, esp regarding growing readership!
I especially appreciate you highlighting an interest in hosting a meeting discussion about growing readership. That's definitely a good topic to explore as a group! I know the marketing / self-promotion element is so fraught for many. Learning healthy ways to navigate social media can be looped into the conversation... and the issue of heritage social media (like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram) being ad-based as opposed to Substack and Medium (subscription-based) is part of that conversation. The shifting field of how to gain readership and promote work can be exhausting.
I'm sorry I couldn't attend, esp.as it was not recorded.I would be interested in seeing your submissions template. Is the organization called Writers' Relief still around? For a hefty fee, it did what Chill Subs probably charges less to teach: how to identify and target tiers, send out sim subs, to 20 journals a month, and keep track it all. Of course Submittable does a lot of tracking, including of submissions made outside the Submittable universe. What makes the top tier top? Quality of work, by writers with recognized award and prizes? There is the validation of perceived status and prestige and that of being recognized and admired by even one true fan.
Hi Catherine, thanks for your note. Not sure if Writer's Relief is operational. Yes, it's all very subjective when speaking of "Top Tier". There are so many lists... all interesting, of course... like most humans I love lists... but, regardless, they don't really answer the question. Usually, these lists are based on award nominations or inclusions in anthologies such as Pushcart, Best American, Best of the Net... And I suspect we all feel validated in different ways.
Thanks for this post. One of the things that I don't see mentioned so far is the way that some journals foster a sense of community by the fact that they allow readers to comment. That includes One Art (Even though, for some reason, my own comments are always somehow blocked. Must be something to do with my computer). Another thing that makes me want to submit to certain journals is that their website is easy to use -- e g.- you can do a search for an author, for example, to see all their work over time. Some online journals are much harder to sift through. I've had work published in a journal that awarded my poem a prize, but there is no way for a reader to click from the winner announcement/judge's comments to my poem or my name. No way to search any author's names or poem titles at all. You just have to scroll chronologically. I'm still glad for it, but it taught me something to be aware of in the future. Now, ease of use and ability to comment are additional considerations for me when I decide which journals I want to keep submitting to. I appreciate the way you have built One Art into such a hospitable and welcoming virtual space
Thanks for mentioning the community connection and, specifically, the ability to comment on poems. This *did* come up in the meeting, I'm often told both readers and contributors appreciate the ability to communicate and engage via comments and that it truly does foster community.
That is strange and unfortunate about your inability to comment... it's possible you have to sign-in and create and account to be able to comment.
Fully agree about the searchability of published authors being important. That is unfortunate that it's very difficult to find published work by authors in some lit mags. I wish it was easier to see how many times a poet has published in ONE ART... unfortunately, that's not something that I thought to integrate early (and it's beyond my webmaster abilities...) I do think it's nice when journals have an Archive that lists the number of appearances an author has had in their journal.
Thank you for your kind words about ONE ART being a hospitable space. Certainly an ever-present goal!
You're welcome! Re number of times an author appears -- for me, it's enough.that one can click on an author's name and thereby be able to scroll down through all their work on your (or another journal's) site. If I want to count, I can, but my interest is in reading.more work by an author I like, or finding that poem that I read 2 months ago whose title I can't remember but whose author for some reason stuck in my brain. it's nice to be able to find it. :)
Thanks for this, Mark. I don't know where you find the time for all your endeavors! Reading the comments, I realize I've always been something of a primitive regarding submissions. I use Google Docs (not spreadsheets) with four columns: poem title, journal name, submission date, result. That's it. I color poem titles in deep blue when they are accepted. I add a note when there are no sim subs . For the rest, most of it is mental bookkeeping about where to sub, and I like to keep a wildcard element alive because I've noticed often the ones that get through are the ones you least expected, while the 'sure things' are rather often not so sure. So I recommend - for those seeking guidance - to include something off-kilter or maybe just a bit different that what the algos suggest is a perfect fit. Keep it human! Great advice about growing a thick skin quickly. Rejection is the default. Keep at it!
True about the "wild card" addition to a submission. This came up in the live discussion and I mentioned how, in more recent years, I've tried to tailor my submissions even more so... sometimes sending less than the full allowance if I believe just a poem or two are appropriate for the journal. But then I did mention all the stories I hear (and I've experienced myself) of the poem that was tacked on at the end to fill out a submission being the one that just so happens to get picked up. It's a bit mysterious but the reality is it's difficult to read into the subjective whims of editors/publishers.
I'd almost go so far as to coin a 'wildcard rule', esp. regarding 'top tier' or 'dream journals'. Tho in the end I try to dissuade myself from the concept of dream journals. I try to put them all on the same plane mentally, despite rankings. Metrics are destroying us, I think.
Notable point about metrics.
I regret missing this session. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks for this Mark! It was a great session and I learned a lot. I'm glad you provided this summary. I'm sort of in a writing and reading and discovering phase right now. Taking the time to craft some things I truly love and what those are. I thought it important to focus on that rather than churn a bunch of stuff out for the sake of submitting. This is a good time to get my plan together.
Thank you so much for these thoughts Mark. I also use Google sheets for my submission database. It's not too anal in terms of specific dates or aspirations for the poems, so maybe not as detailed as most, but I do include month and year that I send a piece out to a particular journal, and I use color coding, so that for me it's very visual to know when poems have gone out and where, and then if they've been accepted, and if I sent it to a place without simultaneous submissions, or if I sent it to a place with simultaneous submissions but have to withdraw it, I have a color for each of those statuses.
I use a color-coded element as well (green = accepted, yellow = rewrite request, red = something went terribly wrong). Sounds like you have a more complex system for using colors. That's wise if it works. I think for some of us we can only manage so much complexity in our systems.
We have something in common. My acceptances are also green, a bright green. After that I also use a pale, lichen green to indicate rejection with encouragement to resubmit. I use a mustard color for rejection with no encouragement. I reserve red for no simultaneous submissions, so that I don't make any mistakes. For me, each piece has its own row. And those entries are more or less alphabetical. I also include keywords from the piece in case I need to search for them among my files. I suppose if you're solely using Google for your documents as well, you could make your entries links to the poems, so that you could always find them to send them out again. I'm not that sophisticated though.
I've started to try to include a list of keywords at the bottom of poem documents with the date, etc. It's a good idea for searchability, especially when you go to start assembling a collection. I only recently started this practice (unfortunately). Search functions are still limited... but as AI search progresses I have a sense it will be a little like what is happening with phone photos... we may be able to find "themes", tropes, throughlines using this technology... though it's certainly debatable if that is good or takes some of the art out of the very difficult to learn skill of putting together a book. I remember learning that assembling a poetry collection is an entirely new skillset the first time I set out to do so... side-stepping learning that skill will be, well, not great... but that's another story in the larger picture of AI (alien intelligence) concerns altogether...
Such a great meeting. Love the Chill Subs lists you've included-will check those out.
While certain lit journals do have more prestige, I like that you recognize 'top tier' as those journals where we feel a connection... which happens for me when I love the poetry a journal publishes & find their website easy to read/navigate.
Certainly, there are so many different approaches to submitting work. I find my own constantly evolving.
I look forward to future meetings, esp regarding growing readership!
Thanks so much, Jennifer!
I especially appreciate you highlighting an interest in hosting a meeting discussion about growing readership. That's definitely a good topic to explore as a group! I know the marketing / self-promotion element is so fraught for many. Learning healthy ways to navigate social media can be looped into the conversation... and the issue of heritage social media (like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram) being ad-based as opposed to Substack and Medium (subscription-based) is part of that conversation. The shifting field of how to gain readership and promote work can be exhausting.
I'm sorry I couldn't attend, esp.as it was not recorded.I would be interested in seeing your submissions template. Is the organization called Writers' Relief still around? For a hefty fee, it did what Chill Subs probably charges less to teach: how to identify and target tiers, send out sim subs, to 20 journals a month, and keep track it all. Of course Submittable does a lot of tracking, including of submissions made outside the Submittable universe. What makes the top tier top? Quality of work, by writers with recognized award and prizes? There is the validation of perceived status and prestige and that of being recognized and admired by even one true fan.
Hi Catherine, thanks for your note. Not sure if Writer's Relief is operational. Yes, it's all very subjective when speaking of "Top Tier". There are so many lists... all interesting, of course... like most humans I love lists... but, regardless, they don't really answer the question. Usually, these lists are based on award nominations or inclusions in anthologies such as Pushcart, Best American, Best of the Net... And I suspect we all feel validated in different ways.